How Can I Keep From Singing?

Pete Seeger looks back at a life of stories and songs—and ahead to
the next verse
by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers 2002
        Few individuals have enriched our musical lives in as many ways, and for 
        as many years, as Pete Seeger. As a young Harvard dropout in the late 
        '30s, he collected songs with Alan Lomax; in the '40s, he hardwired folk 
        music and politics with Woody Guthrie and the Almanac Singers; in the 
        '50s, he helped spark the folk revival with the Weavers; and he's piped 
        up at countless concerts and rallies around the world ever since. Along 
        the way, he's written, adapted, popularized, or otherwise spread an 
        incredible array of songs ("Where Have All the Flowers Gone," "Wimoweh," 
        "Turn! Turn! Turn!," "If I Had a Hammer," "We Shall Overcome," 
        "Guantanamera". . .) and inspired generations of pickers with his 
        high-energy 12-string guitar and banjo work. And he has taught us how 
        it's done, from his pioneering 1943 book How to Play the Five-String 
        Banjo to his lucid explanations of Leadbelly's guitar style, how to make 
        and play steel drums, and much more. Through all this, Seeger's mission 
        has not been to bask in the spotlight but to shine it on us, offering us 
        the tools and encouragement to raise our voices in song and protest.
        As Seeger strides ahead in his 80s, a rack of recent releases testifies 
        to the vitality of his music and life. To name a few: two volumes of The 
        Songs of Pete Seeger collect tributes by artists from Ani DiFranco to 
        Bruce Springsteen; a reissued/expanded Greatest Hits set brings us his 
        own classic performances from the '60s; and Pete Seeger's Storytelling 
        Book shares some of his favorite yarns, including several that he starts 
        and, in typical fashion, asks us to finish. And the man once indicted by 
        Congress and blacklisted from national television and major concert 
        venues finds himself honored by the Kennedy Center and inducted into the 
        Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, recognized as a pillar of American music and 
        For all of his activities and activism in so many fields, Seeger truly 
        lives in song, and he seems incapable of talking for more than three 
        minutes without breaking into one. I reached him at his home in Beacon, 
        New York, alongside a Hudson River much cleaner thanks in no small part 
        to his efforts.
        You are closely associated with the banjo, but you've also made a big 
        contribution to guitar music. How did you learn to play?
        Seeger : When I was around 21, I jumped off a freight train and broke my 
        banjo, and the only cheap instrument I could get—it was five dollars at 
        a local hock shop—was a small guitar. And I quickly learned the chords 
        so I could play in a few primary keys. I used a flatpick—bass/chord, 
        bass/chord, that's all I knew—and discarded that guitar as soon as I 
        could get a good banjo again. 
        But when I was around 30, Leadbelly died, and I and many people said, 
        "Gee, why didn't we learn how he played the 12-string?" A friend got me 
        started with Travis picking, so I learned a bit about Leadbelly's guitar 
        style and about Travis picking. Leadbelly didn't play fancy chords, but 
        boy, what beautiful bass lines he made up. 
        I also went down to the Bahamas once and looked up Joseph Spence. He was 
        a very cordial man, and he played everything in dropped-D tuning. I'd 
        played in dropped D occasionally, but I found out how nice it was to 
        play all the time. I guess I must play 95 percent of the time now in 
        dropped D. 
        Was it long after Leadbelly died that you began working on the book A 
        Folksinger's Guide to the 12-String Guitar as Played by Leadbelly? 
        Seeger Oh, yeah, long after he died. You know, my basic philosophy in 
        life is that I'm a teacher trying to teach people to participate, 
        whether it's banjos or guitars or politics or whatever. 
        What initially attracted you to the banjo?
        Seeger:  I love rhythm. It was vigorous, and I was young and full of 
        vigor. I just loved "John Henry" and "Old Joe Clark," nice, sparkling 
        songs like that. As the years go by I find, of course, that I also like 
        other songs. I find myself playing the slow, two-part melody out of 
        Beethoven's Seventh Symphony. 
        How did you learn to play?
        Seeger:  Well, old Bascom Lunsford, who was a country lawyer in Asheville, 
        North Carolina, put on one of the first outdoor Appalachian festivals, 
        the Asheville Mountain Song and Dance Festival–this was 1936. That's 
        where I heard Aunt Samantha Bumgarner in her rocking chair, rocking and 
        picking a banjo and singing old ballads and having so much fun, with a 
        big grin on her face. Bascom later found I was playing a tenor banjo; he 
        says, "Oh, you should play a five-string, and here's what you do: you 
        pluck up on that middle string, now you pluck up on that first string, 
        and now you put your thumb on that little fifth string, and you get this 
        pattern: boom pick-a, boom pick-a, boom pick-a, boom." And so in five 
        minutes he taught me the basics.
        In 1940, I took the whole summer hitchhiking west and south. A teacher 
        in New York had said, "My cousin Rufus in Kentucky can show you a lot 
        about the banjo," so I aimed for his house, and that's where I learned a 
        little clawhammer playing. 
        Did those patterns apply to the guitar?
        Seeger:  They certainly helped my dexterity; however, I had to learn a lot 
        about syncopation and so on before I was able to play "Freight train, 
        freight train, goin' so fast." My brother and sister learned directly 
        from Libba [Elizabeth Cotten, who worked for the Seegers as a maid]. I 
        would go down to visit them in Washington [D.C.] and marvel at what she 
        was doing, but I couldn't figure what it was. Ten years later I got it. 
        However, I once played it to her, and she said, "You're not playing it 
        right at all! You're playing it in D; I always do it in C." I played it 
        in dropped D. I still like it in dropped D—you get a lot of open strings.
        Your banjo book introduced a new way to teach music, reviving tablature 
        and coining now-standard terms like hammer-on and pull-off. 
        How did you arrive at your approach?
        Seeger: I was in the army 55 years ago when my father says, "Peter, do 
        you realize that not many people have your knowledge of writing as well 
        as knowledge of the banjo? Have you ever thought of putting out a banjo 
        manual?" I really didn't know a thing about banjo manuals, except that I 
        didn't like the ones I had seen, which were too technical. And they 
        weren't very funny, didn't entice you to read further. So I took some 
        students, and for about ten weeks we had a weekly lesson. One of the 
        students was Eric Weissberg [who recorded the Deliverance theme "Dueling 
        Banjos"], and within a month or two he was playing rings around me. His 
        father was a photographer, took a picture of him with an astronaut's hat 
        on, a space suit, and holding a picture of the Weavers in his hand. 
        Eleven-year-old Eric Weissberg.
        After teaching them, I was off to try and help Henry Wallace get elected 
        president, a spectacular failure. But in the hotels I had hours to sit 
        around every day while Mr. Wallace was being interviewed, so I typed up 
        mimeograph stencils, and the original banjo book was, I think, 59 pages. 
        I mimeographed 100 copies, and they sold in four years. 
        You used tablature in that book, yet you've taught standard notation 
        Seeger:  Yeah, I wrote a book called Henscratches and Flyspecks, 
        persuading people that it's not really that hard to learn how to read 
        music. You don't need to be scared of it. My mother, who was a violin 
        teacher, tried to get me to learn music at an early age, but I rebelled, 
        as did my older brothers. When I came along, my father sensibly said, 
        "Oh, let Peter enjoy himself." What she did was leave musical 
        instruments around the house–not just a piano and an organ but a squeeze 
        box with buttons and a pennywhistle in C and a marimba, a wooden marimba 
        with mallets that I could go plinkety-plunk. By the time I was five, I 
        could pick out a tune on all these instruments, and I knew what made a 
        major chord different from a minor chord, even though I didn't have a 
        name for it. And that if you raised the fifth note of your major chord 
        you got a strange new thing. My mother said, "That's called an augmented 
        chord." I didn't bother calling it that; I just played it. I was eight 
        years old when I learned Irving Berlin's "Blue Skies," and that great 
        augmented chord comes in the second bar.
        So I knew a hell of a lot about music without knowing the names for 
        anything. I could tell you all the pop songs of 1927, '28, '29, '30. My 
        mother gave me a ukulele in '27. [Sings] "He's just a sentimental 
        gentleman from Georgia, Georgia / Gentle to the ladies all the time / 
        And when it comes to lovin'/ He's a real professor, yes sir / Just a 
        Mason Dixon Valentine" [laughs]. I knew the words were silly, but I was 
        intrigued by the cleverness of the harmonies; and then later I realized 
        that cleverness is not enough in this world. I loved these old folk 
        songs that had one or two or, at most, three chords. That's when I met 
        Woody Guthrie, and he was leery of trying a lot of chords. Even songs 
        that demanded that double dominant, he would not do it. Like "Do Re Mi," 
        he used the tune of a country song [sings], "Hang out the front door 
        key, babe / Hang out the front door key," and if you're playing in G, 
        you should hit an A major seven there. Woody refused to. He was 
        rebelling against all that cleverness, and he would hit a plain D7. 
        Did your interest in folk music lead you to songs with political 
        content, or did the two go hand in hand?
        Seeger:  It really went hand in hand. We had an idea that working people 
        were going to be the saviors of the world, and we should learn more 
        about working people's music. And the most honest working people's music 
        was the old country songs, even when they weren't strictly working 
        people's . . . I mean "Greensleeves" is obviously not a working person's 
        song. It was a pop song of the 16th century.
        What did you, as a musician, learn from Woody?
        Seeger:  I learned the genius of simplicity. He didn't try and get fancy, 
        he didn't try to show how clever he was. He had done a lot of thinking, 
        and he read voraciously. I remember the time he got hold of Rabelais and 
        got through it all in one or two days, and in the following weeks you 
        could see him trying some of the same stylistic tricks of piling on 
        adjective after adjective. However, he once said, "I must steer clear of 
        Walt Whitman's swimmy waters." I think he decided that if he was going 
        to write songs, he wanted the lines to rhyme, and he liked things to be 
        in meter.
        Woody Guthrie wrote some of the country's most truly great songs. Not 
        just "This Land Is Your Land," but "So Long (It's Been Good to Know 
        You)" and "Do Re Mi" and the one that I think may be widely sung in the 
        coming century in Spanish, "Deportees." A Chicano in California, a 
        Puerto Rican, and now somebody in Ecuador, I understand, have made 
        translations of it. The metaphor comparing throwing food away to 
        throwing people away—get rid of those people, we don't need them.
        Woody wrote songs at such an incredible rate. How did that affect you?
        Seeger:  I was deeply envious to see how quickly he could write songs. 
        Once we flew to Pittsburgh in '46 to sing for the Westinghouse workers 
        on strike; while Lee [Hays] went to sleep and I read a magazine, Woody 
        made up verse after verse after verse about the towns we were flying 
        over, wondering what life was like in those towns, and then looking at 
        the pretty stewardess and wondering what her life was like, and then he 
        gets up and leaves these pages in the seat. He literally wrote verses 
        everywhere he was every day. When Alan Lomax met him, he said, "Woody, 
        do you realize you are like the person who wrote the ballads of Robin 
        Hood? Your job in life is to write ballads—don't let anything distract 
        you from writing ballads." 
        Had you written songs before meeting Woody?
        Seeger:  Nope. When my mother once asked me to write a song for her 
        father, my grandfather, who died, I was surprised. "Why does she think I 
        know how to write a song?" I wrote poems occasionally for the school 
        magazine, but they weren't worthy of being songs. But I met Woody and 
        got the idea you could write songs. I first tried putting new words to 
        old tunes, which is what he did, and found that I was better at putting 
        new tunes to old words.
        From your perspective, is songwriting more about borrowing and 
        rearranging than pulling something entirely new out of the air?
        Seeger:  Have you heard the latest song that I sing everywhere called 
        "Arrange and Rearrange"? It has a four-letter word in it, and I am 
        delighted I am able to get huge audiences to sing shit. It's right in 
        the chorus, [sings] "Oh-wee, oh-wye, and only have to shit a little 
        shit." I had 3,000 Quakers singing it a few years ago.
        You get an idea for a song, and nobody knows where it came from. I guess 
        psychologists have said there are right and left halves of the brain, 
        and sometimes the brain puts things together that you could never have 
        done consciously, whether it's a melody or phrase. On the other hand, I 
        quote Edison's dictum, "Genius is five percent inspiration and 95 
        percent perspiration." I got the idea for the last line of "Waist Deep 
        in the Big Muddy" ("and the big fool says to push on") all at once. It 
        came to me in a flash when I was looking at a picture of American troops 
        wading across the Mekong River. It was such a good idea, I couldn't let 
        it go. But I struggled with it for two or three weeks before I got a 
        usable song.
        As far as instrumentals go, you've said that "Living in the Country" is 
        one guitar piece that stands out for you.
        Seeger:  I am really proud that Leo Kottke did it, and I understand that 
        some piano players made a record of it too. I just improvised it. I was 
        trying to play "Pay Me My Money Down," which my sister Peggy had been 
        singing, and all of a sudden I had a new tune. And, as of last month I 
        have put, of all things, words to it—not to my tune, but to what Frank 
        Hamilton improvised. We made a Folkways record years ago called 
        Nonesuch, and on a steel-string guitar, he played three notes above the 
        melody of "Living in the Country," and it was a melody all on its own. 
        So I am now sending this to my long-suffering publisher and saying 
        melody by Frank Hamilton, words by Pete Seeger. [Sings] "If you would be 
        patient and teach me I think that I could learn to dance." It's the best 
        love song I've ever written. I wrote those words ten years ago, but I 
        couldn't figure what to make of the rest of it until just three weeks 
        Are there things that have happened to songs you wrote or popularized 
        that have particularly surprised you?
        Seeger: It happens all the time. I was particularly surprised that 
        anybody did anything with "Where Have All the Flowers Gone." I only had 
        three verses, and I sang it as a slow air, with two other very short 
        songs; I called them my "Short Shorts." After a year, I went on to other 
        songs and stopped singing it—it was a nice song, but I didn't think it 
        was that great.
        What happened was that Joe Hickerson heard my song on a Folkways record 
        and sang it at summer camp to see what the kids thought of it. The kids 
        started kidding around with him, "Where have all the counselors gone? 
        Broken curfew every one," and by the end of the summer, the two verses 
        that Joe added, "Where have all the soldiers gone?" and "Where have all 
        the graveyards gone?" seemed to make a nice circle out of it. That's the 
        way the kids took it back to New York, and that's where Peter, Paul, and 
        Mary started singing it, thinking it was an old folk song, and that's 
        where the Kingston Trio got it, thinking it was an old folk song. 
        I gave Joe 20 percent of the royalties–it was lucky I didn't give him 50 
        percent, because I now think I should send 20 percent to Russia, because 
        that's where the original idea came from. The three verses were out of 
        the middle of an old Russian song, "Koloda Duda." I am now trying to 
        figure how to send some money to the Archive of Folk Song, whether they 
        are in St. Petersburg or Moscow.
        All around the world, songs are being written that use old public domain 
        material, and I think it's only fair that some of the money from the 
        songs go to the country or place of origin, even though the composer may 
        be long dead or unknown. That's why 50 percent of the story-song 
        "Abiyoyo" is going to South Africa, because "Abiyoyo" is an old lullaby. 
        And with "Turn! Turn! Turn!" [based on Ecclesiastes in the Bible], I 
        wanted to send 45 percent, because [in addition to the music] I did 
        write six words and one more word repeated three times, so I figured I'd 
        keep five percent of the royalties for the words. I was going to send it 
        to London, where I am sure the committee that oversees the use of the 
        King James version exists, and they probably could use a little cash. 
        But then I realized, why not send it to where the words were originally 
        written? So we're sending some money to help the Israeli Committee for 
        Arab Home Defense, which is trying against all logic to persuade Arabs 
        that not all Israeli Jews are evil, selfish people. 
        Isn't a song's origin often hard to pinpoint?
        Seeger:  Well, yeah, you're quite right. "Abiyoyo" might have been made up 
        by another tribe, not the Xhosa people, a thousand years ago, and who 
        knows? I want to persuade the rest of the Weavers that we should send 
        some money to the Irish folk song archives for the song "Kisses Sweeter 
        than Wine." It's an old Irish song: [sings] "Mush-a sweeter than thou." 
        It was a song about a dead cow. This Irish artist sang it to Leadbelly, 
        and Leadbelly started singing it, but he put an African rhythm to it. 
        And along comes Lee Hays and puts words to it, and it's still being sung 
        after all these decades. I sing it at every wedding I'm at. 
        Do you think that given the way communication and immigration happens 
        these days, music travels around the world in a different way?
        Seeger:  Undoubtedly it is happening faster, and over broader distances 
        than ever before. You can only laugh if you don't cry. The rich are 
        getting richer and the poor are being left behind the eight ball and 
        getting more and more angry. I don't think there will be a human race 
        here in 100 years unless the rich countries realize it's in everybody's 
        interest that everybody in the world have a job and be decently fed and 
        clothed. And when some people have billions, so their only worry is, 
        "How can I make more billions?" or "How am I going to give away all my 
        billions?" that becomes a big problem. It's a very bad situation. In an 
        upside-down way, maybe out of this terrible tragedy in New York–I know 
        two people who were killed there–maybe the better nature of the USA will 
        come to the surface and say, "No, dropping more bombs is not going to 
        solve this problem. It's just going to make people angrier. What will 
        solve it is finding out why they are so angry and finding ways to stop 
        the anger."
        Do you know Granny D.? At age 88, she told her son, "Drive me to Los 
        Angeles," and she started walking to Washington ten miles a day. Her 
        most recent letter comes out with this statement; I xeroxed it and carry 
        it around in my pocket. Listen: "We cannot kill our way to love and 
        respect, where our only true security resides." Well me, at nine years 
        younger than she is, I say, amen.
        Excerpted from Acoustic Guitar magazine, July 2002, No. 115. 

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